40 OVER 40 Caroline Norris
#24
Caroline Norris
BAFTA winning Comedy Producer
Caroline Norrisby Jenny Smith
Caroline Norris is a BAFTA award winning comedy producer, the woman responsible for bringing the ground breaking Horrible Histories children's TV show to our screens. The show was and is a touch of genius, teaching kids (and adults) about history in such an entertaining and memorable way that I wonder if it should just be shown in schools across the land to give our undervalued teachers a well earned break. But she's also behind so many more TV shows, such as Motherland which she also won a BAFTA for.
Caroline told me during our session that she doesn't enjoy being in front of the camera, hence why she's a producer, but that she's trying to overcome this fear and I hope that our shoot and these gorgeous photos have helped her see that being front and centre can be fun too.
Please read on to hear more from Caroline who has really opened up about her life and career.
Caroline Norrisby Jenny Smith
Can you give us a brief insight into creating Horrible Histories for TV? Was there an 'ah ha' moment when brainstorming ideas?
I’d missed the books growing up because they came out after I left school so when I was asked to create a TV show from them in 2007, I bought a couple. At the time I was reluctant to do more kids’ tv because the budgets are small and you need a certain kind of energy for that challenge. As soon as I read the books, though, I knew what the show should be. It was clearly a sketch show and I loved Terry & Martin’s way of making facts subversive. The feeling that we could make a mischievous show drawing on influences like Monty Python and Blackadder was really exciting. My co-creator, Dominic Brigstocke, felt exactly the same way and we agreed that if we were going to do it, we’d make it like any prime time sketch show just with no swearing. Everything would be from the perspective of children (no innuendo that left them out) and we’d bring in the best people we knew from mainstream comedy to make something we’d want to watch too. I said at the beginning that my ambition was to make a show that everyone said was too good for kids’ TV, and that was the standard we set ourselves throughout.
Caroline Norrisby Jenny Smith
Any special memories or anecdotes from that time you can share?
Everything about the show was fun. It was incredibly hard work developing the best scripts, making sure they were factually accurate, shooting them really fast (because of the budget) and then weaving them into a show in the edit. The whole process took a year for every series and the more successful the show became, the more pressure we felt to up our game. But we had the best team, the best writers, and the best cast. It was a privilege and we laughed A LOT. I have so many stories and fun memories from that time so every time I watch a sketch I can remember the day it was filmed. I loved the letters we got sent. One from a mother saying she’d had a new baby and told her 5 year old son that they were calling him William, to which the 5 year old said “Like William the Conqueror?”. She asked him where he’d got that from and he said Horrible Histories. I loved it when we heard from kids delighted that they’d come downstairs to find their Dad watching Horrible Histories on his own. That’s what we wanted - for kids to be able to introduce adults to something they could share. One of the best things about the show was that if we got the scripts right, we knew the cast would elevate them with their performances. Finding the voice for Charles II was a challenge. Mat tried him as Eminem (to match the song parody) and said it just didn’t feel right. Then he tried it cockney, then posh but we still felt something was missing. We talked about who Charles was and what might work and in the end decided that since he loved a party, maybe he was always just a bit pissed. So Mat did him as a posh drunk man and it was perfect. I loved that process. Jim’s Richard III is him doing a Tony Blair impression for some reason known only to Jim, but it’s very funny. Larry was one of the main writers and became a key member of the cast as we went along. When he wrote something like “there’s a man covered in poo” I would cast him in that part because, you know, he’d written it. He started writing “there’s a man - who looks nothing like Laurence Rickard - covered in poo”. Didn’t work though. If you watch the outtakes (which are online) I think you get a very good sense of what it was like to make the show. Serious fun, I think I’d call it!
Caroline Norrisby Jenny Smith
Do you think women in comedy and TV production are treated differently as they age? Also, over the years what has it been like working in comedy which for so long was a male dominated arena?
I feel like I was lucky because a lot of brilliant women had blazed a trail before me so being a female producer in comedy didn’t feel too alien by the time I got there. Beryl Vertue, Victoria Pile, Caroline Leddy, Jo Sergeant, Sophie Clarke-Jervoise, Lucy Lumsden and more behind the scenes meant the world felt like it was opening up. I could see people like me on the road ahead. We’ve made a concerted effort to staff shows with a more representative balance in all areas in my time as a producer but there’s more work to do...
Caroline Norrisby Jenny Smith
...I don’t think I ever felt a glass ceiling until I got into my late 40s/early 50s. There are fewer jobs for people at a senior level and lots of women have to take career breaks or stay mid-level while they have families, meaning there are fewer women in the senior mix. I’ve noticed that it’s lonelier here and that men seem better at elbowing their way into top positions so we still need to push for equality. That said, there’s (tragically) not much comedy being made at the moment because of the crisis in TV production. Most comedy doesn’t sell internationally so it’s losing out to drama which attracts international co-funding. It’s a huge shame, partly because great comedy is so loved and endlessly repeatable, and partly because some of the best dramas of recent years have come from Jesse Armstrong (Succession), Sharon Horgan (Bad Sisters) and Will Smith (Slow Horses) who all have a comedy background. I hope comedy rises again soon. We all need a good laugh.
Caroline Norrisby Jenny Smith
Is there anything that’s improved with age that no one told you about?
Oh God, to be free from periods is just the best! I got straight on the HRT as soon as the hot flushes appeared and I’ve been lucky to get through the whole shebang pretty unscathed. I’m loving my 50s. Old enough to know my own mind, young and fit enough to enjoy life. Obviously I’ve started sea swimming and retraining as a psychotherapist because I’m a massive cliche. I’m also rediscovering the joys of my youth like getting back into horse riding and cycling. I feel less weighed down by the need to achieve, succeed and keep up, and more focussed on making the most of my time. I have a lovely husband and step daughter, an elderly sausage dog, a rescue cat and a part-time horse so I’m usually covered in hair. I have great family, friends and I’m healthy so I feel very lucky. I like being invisible, if I’m honest. It means you can do whatever the hell you like.
Caroline Norrisby Jenny Smith
Is there anything you worried about when you were younger that turned out to be completely irrelevant?
I thought I had to learn to network and couldn’t figure out how people made connections with all these important people. Turns out all you have to do is be nice and get older and the people you started out with become important people who you happen to know. It’s funny seeing people I’ve known forever running companies or even countries. It makes the world seem more human, which is important at the moment when parts of it feel completely and utterly alien.
Caroline Norrisby Jenny Smith
Has your definition of success changed since you started in the industry?
Success for me is producing a show that people love; a show that connects with audiences, surprises them and makes them laugh. That takes teamwork so success comes from working with great people in real collaboration at every level. I’m in awe of what was achieved on Adolescence and the teamwork that made that possible - it must have been such a buzz. I’m always learning and always trying to figure out how to do the best work in the kindest and most inclusive way. These days success is less about my own career and more about discovering and mentoring new talent when I have time - there’s nothing better than being a springboard for someone brilliant. I give my time to be a mentor on the NFTS Comedy Writing & Production course and have met some great new writers through that. I also do talks for Speakers for Schools to help children believe that you can go from an ordinary comprehensive school to the Bafta stage without any contacts or hothousing - I’ve managed to make a career out of watching TV and you can’t get better than that!
Caroline Norrisby Jenny Smith
Is there any advice you would give your younger self?
My Dad was bipolar which was traumatic and meant I spent a lot of my time feeling guilty or scared. I loved him but his illness trapped me. When he died in 2007 I felt a huge weight lifted and I wish my younger self could have felt that freedom. I think I’d give my younger self a massive hug, help her talk about her feelings and tell her it’s not her fault - people aren’t judging her as harshly as she’s judging herself.
Caroline Norrisby Jenny Smith
Any advice for women who want to make it in the industry?
Do it! Get in any way you can, find what you love (there are loads of jobs you wouldn’t know existed unless you’re on the inside) and enjoy it. My first job was working in HR at Granada TV. I’d applied for a programme making traineeship and didn’t get it, but they offered me a job with HR. Possibly because I’d turned up in a suit! It wasn’t what I’d imagined doing at all, but I figured I’d learn more from the inside than from waitressing in Bella Pasta so I took it and it was a brilliant start. Granada was an incredible, bonkers place to work and I met so many amazing people. I got opportunities to go and see shows being made and to help out on a few productions. My first boss, Ian Critchley, was a huge support when I wanted to move into programme making and has remained a huge support throughout my career. Any chance you get to work on a production of any size will give you a sense of how things are made. I started off in kids telly, became a producer and then moved into comedy, so you don’t have to stay where you start out. All experience is valuable. Don’t put up with bullying or harassment - report them to someone you trust. TV should be challenging but fun and it’s us who make it that way. Middle class women of a certain age are your ally.
Caroline Norrisby Jenny Smith
Anything else you’d like to say?
I’ve had dark times in this business and being freelance at the moment is really, really tough. So although I adore my job and my time of life, I take anti-depressants and have regular therapy to deal with the other stuff. It’s all a balance so don’t be fooled into thinking someone else’s experience is 100% rosy. I’m currently working on a project that really excites me with talented, inspirational people so I’m feeling very positive. When I’m out of work or in a job that’s a grind, it’s a lot less fun. But overall it’s definitely worth it. I get to work with brilliant and bizarre people telling wild stories, making jokes and building worlds. It can be all consuming but it’s never boring. It’s also hilariously unglamorous. People imagine red carpets and champagne when 99% of filming is standing around in the rain, or crammed into someone’s downstairs toilet so you’re not in shot, watching tiny monitors and waiting for a plane to piss off so you can record sound. If that sounds like your idea of fun, this is the life for you.
Caroline Norrisby Jenny Smith
Thank you Caroline for being part of the 40 OVER 40 project.
I think it's fair to say our hormones have affected us all at some time or another. If you fancy a bit of a laugh, check out my podcast, Dear Hormones where women share their hormonal stories, the good the bad and the ugly - listen here.